The following are the further arguments put forth by Mr. Elias D’costa. This is in response to Mr. Srinivasan’s above post and I reproduce the same without editing or modifying the contents. In all fairness, I reproduce his mail as it isl I got from Mr. D’costa – TRS Iyengar
Thank you for your e-mail, and I am sorry I could not reply earlier, as I was very busy. I like to wish you and your family a very happy new year 2005.
I am very glad that you begin your email by saying “In seeking Truth………” and that is precisely my conviction. It is not what I believe or what you believe or somebody else believes.
According to Correspondence Theory of Truth, any Statement, Thought, or Belief must correspond to reality.
Paul Copan in the Book “True For You, But Not For Me” says “In this book, I am arguing for a correspondence view of truth. That is, proposition or ideas correspond to reality, to the facts, to the real world” (Paul Copan, “True For You, But Not For Me”, Bethany house publishers 1998, page 173)
Let us see where the evidence leads us about this one true Universal God.
You claim “Deep Logical approach on any Subject goes endless and finally NOWHERE…. How?”. You then give an analogy of beggar asking for alms and addressing the lady as ‘Mother’, you then conclude by saying “we have to ANALYZE BY BRAIN …. But UNDERSTAND and REALIZE BY HEART.”
According to you, this lady is obstinate on her own Inferences and Self-centered, because of the argument of the word ‘Mother’.
Srinivasan, you are then implying that the word ‘Mother’ has no meaning. In logic, if any word means anything and everything – Then it means nothing, it becomes any empty term. Are you able to live by this philosophy?
Let us assume this lady is your mother, and the state issues a 10 million dollar reward to Srinivasan’s mother, using your philosophy of “ANALYZE BY BRAIN …. But UNDERSTAND and REALIZE BY HEART” any person who claims as ‘Mother’ should be awarded the 10 million dollar. You see how ridiculous it gets?
Imagine two ladies A & B, claiming to be your biological mother. Logically, both A & B cannot be your mother, either it is A or it is B or it is possible both lady A and lady B are lying. – The issue here is the Truth, not your feelings of the heart.
You claim: Hinduism is “SANATHANA-DHARMA” and “IS A COMBINATION OR MOSAIC-PATTERN or the COMPOSITE-FORM of several Great Religions.”
Response: Based on your philosophy, Hinduism is like a cosmic vacuum cleaner, which sucks in everything viz Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, Atheism, Skepticism etc.
Just because all religions have terminology like god, eternal, divine, commandments, grace, omnipotent etc…it does not mean that all religions are same and worshipping the same god. It is like saying all of us have same car, just because it has wheels, doors, lights, dashboard, rooftop etc…. You see how ridiculous and absurd it gets?
Srinivasan, You make the following bold assertion about Hinduism:
1) Differences in Hinduism is left to the choice of the man, the God-Seeker….
2) Nobody is compelled to follow a specific part of these Gospels…or Divine-Commandments or the Holy-Stipulations but choose one amongst the Several Options of Various Divine- Paths…
3) Hinduism is the ONLY RELIGION OFFERING ABUNDANT FREEDOM
4) Offering various and divergent Options?
5) Hinduism leads the Man to the Highest Degree of BROAD-MINDEDNESS and LARGE-HEARTEDNESS coupled with UNIVERSAL-LOVE.
6) Man-made Supplements and Insertions in the name of Puranas and Stories so as to suit the Divergent-Interpreter’s own personal contentions….
7) Taking advantage of the abundant Freedom this Religion offers
8) These branches of Hinduism have been subsequently created by some individual-Religious-Sectarian-Leaders
You then disagree by saying “Further it is wrong to say that the Hindus are worshipping 330 million forms of Gods. No. Not at all.”
You see the problem with Hinduism, is that it has opened it’s arms so wide, – it allows people to make own choices of seeking God – there is no compulsion
– you can choose one amongst several options
-offers abundant freedom
– offers various divergent offerings
– it is BROAD-MINDED
– it is LARGE-HEARTED
– there are Man-made supplements and Insertions
– it can suit personal tastes
– and finally the religion is created by some individual-Religious-Sectarian-Leaders,
Well, with the above characteristics and traits, I will not be surprised in another 100 years, the number of gods in Hinduism will increase to 350 million. – Is it surprising based on Hindu philosophy? hmmm….something to think about and ponder.
The above eight points prove that Hinduism or Sanathana-Dharma is open to anything and everything, which includes atheism. Srinivasan, you are living in total contradiction,
#1 you spend a great deal of telling me about gods in Hinduism and eternal divine concept and then you contradict by saying even Atheism is accepted. Srinivasan, How can this be? either God exists or he does not exist? what is it? – Can you please make up your mind?
#2 Again, with great interest you spend 2 pages of proving that Hinduism is open to believing in anything and any god will do, later you contradict by telling me with great zeal and passion that the only supreme God is “UNDOUBTEDLY…. MAHA-VISHNU…. or …. NARAYANA… ”
Srinivasan, What is it? is MAHA-VISHNU/NARAYANA a supreme God Head OR All gods are same and equal – Can you please make up your mind, so that we can have a meaningful discussion.
If Maha-Vishnu/Narayana is the supreme God Head, then logically all other gods are lesser in stature and have no place in discussion, further your argument that Hinduism is open to anything and everything falls to the ground.
But, if you hold to the argument that Hinduism is open to the choice of the seekers and any god will do because of the abundant freedom, then logically, Maha-Vishnu/Narayana cannot be the supreme God Head.
Remember, the focus is in the Truth of knowing who this supreme God Head is. Something is not true, just because you believe it. You should believe if there is facts and evidence of truth.
Jan. 06, 2005
Following is the mail I recieved from Mr. D’costa in reply and response to Mr. Parameswaran s post. As usual, I reproduce the same without editing the contents. – TRS Iyengar
Thank you for your e-mail, I am hoping that you are interested in seeking the truth, otherwise we are just wasting our time Something is not true just because you believe it, we should all believe only if it is true
If I tell you that "Snow is Red" would you believe it? - No Why? - There is no evidence which corresponds to reality. All the evidence shows that snow is white.
You claim that you believe in Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma and all other God/Goddesses with their respective function. - Where is the evidence that corresponds to reality about this Supreme God Head?
I have already identified, that the Hindu Scriptures contradict the role of one universal Supreme God Head, either it is Nirguna Brahman, or Shiva, or Vishnu, or Krishna or Rudra or Ishvara... All of them cannot be the
Supreme God Head in the Heavenly Kingdom. Because, a Kingdom divided will be ruined.
Remember, you begin by asking the question "who or what is the supreme power ?" and you also state "I am a strong believer of GOD or A Supreme Power who can create, save or destroy anything in the universe."
Can you please tell me with evidence in the puranas or vedas, who is this one supreme power?
Your analogy of company hierarchy is incorrect. Every company as one CEO, or one Chairman, or one President who controls and governs the corporation.
Similarly, there is only one Prime Minister or President who governs the country, there cannot be two heads of a country, other wise you will have problems, anarchy and the country or corporation will be ruined.
Jesus says it very clearly in the Bible (Matthew 12:25 ".... Every Kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.")
Similarly, in Spiritual matters there must be One true Supreme God over this Universe. This supreme God must show evidence through the scriptures of the following:
- Creation of the Heavens and the Earth (Universe) - Creation of Human life - Creation of Animal, Sea and Plant life - Meaning of life - Moral law - Final Destiny
The picture of the Shiva Temple with all the idols inside is good, but it does not prove that Shiva is One true Supreme God of the Universe. There are lot of civilizations around the world which has idols of Gods /Goddesses
made by human hands, and dates back to 2000 - 3000 year old. - The Aztecs of South America - Zeus or Apollo's of Greek - Baal, Dagon or Molech of Babylonians and Syrians. - Isis, Horus and Ra of Egyptians - Shinto gods of the Japanese. God of the universe cannot live in the idols made by human hands, because they no life. The God of the Bible tells us in (Acts 17:24 "The God who made the world and and Earth and does not live in temples built by human hands") Param, I am interested in seeking the One true God, if you can convince me that Vishnu, or Brahaman, or Shiva, or Parvati, or Laxmi, or Sai Baba, or Allah, or Buddha, ....or who ever is the true God, I will follow that God. In my search, I find the one true universal God in the Bible.
Jan. 06, 2005
And now this third one is also from Mr. D'costa in response to Shyamala's post. I think, now I should go for a
"Forum" Mode for the members to discuss the subject thread bare! Reproduced below is Mr. D'costa's mail
received on the 7th of Jan- TRS Iyengar
Shyamala, Thank you for your response, I am hoping we are interested in seeking the truth. Yet, I find interesting that you still haven't
proven who is the One true Universal God? You claim that "Discussions, contradictions, logic, arguments, none of these can
help" - Is this true? In real life and in the real world that we live, discussion & arguments are very essential to the nature of truth.
- in school the teacher discusses with the students, in college the profess or discusses and argues with the students on
every subject, at office the manager discuss and argues or reasons with the employee on the work to be done. At home
the husband discusses with his wife and children. Without discussion and arguments there is no conclusion. - Each one will do their own thing - it is chaos. Logic and contradiction are very important to the fabric of human life. Every day humans make logical choices on all
matters - most of the time we do not ponder and realize the situation. For example, when I leave my home at 8.00 AM to reach my office, the time is an absolute truth, 8.00 does not mean 7.00,
neither does it mean 9.00.- other wise it is a logical contradiction. When I get into my car, I make sure it is my Honda Accord Red colored car and not my neighborâ€™s Honda Red colored
car - You see, both cars cannot be mine, this is logical contradiction. You claim "The Truth is not a arrived as a conclusion
of any logical discussion, it is beyond the grasp of human mind." - Is this true? Based on the US laws, when I drive, I make sure I drive on the right side of the Road. I do not drive on the left side and at
the right side at the same time - it is logical contradiction - I either drive on the right side, or the eft side of the road, if I
continue to drive on the left side, I will eventually have a head on collision. When I exit the road, I make sure I exit on 'Avenue C' to go to my office. I cannot claim 'Avenue A' to be 'Avenue C',
neither can I claim 'Avenue B' to be 'Avenue C' - It is logical contradiction. All of the exit Avenues are not the same. When I enter the Office parking lot, I enter and make sure it is 400 Continental towers, and not 300 Continental towers,
Continental towers - because 300, 400, 500 Continental towers are different they are not the same. - It is logical
contradiction. When I enter the Office, I make sure I enter office 301 and not the neighboring 302, or 303. When I reach the office cubicles, I make sure I sit in the allocated cubicle marked 'Elias' and not John, or Â Steve, or
Hari, or Shanti
- because all of them are not 'Elias' - It is logical contradiction. When I log in the Computer to begin my day, I log in as 'Elias' and specific password. I do not log in as 'Steve' or 'John'
or 'Hari' or 'Shanti' as 'Elias' - it would be a logical contradiction. Logic helps us to determine the truth, If there is a
contradiction, all of them cannot be true at the same time and in the same context. Only one of them is true. Shyamala, you claim "Does it matter how you call your father" and then you go on to say that Father is 'James' or
'Paul' or 'Kumar' You are living in a contradictory world view which is nothing but pluralistic and filled with relativism. In logic, If the word 'Father' means anything and everything then it means nothing - It is an empty term. There is only one true 'Father' who is the creator of this universe, and the only way to approach him is through Jesus
Christ who is the embodiment of all truth. Jesus says in (John 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.") You begin by saying "The Truth is not a arrived as a conclusion of any logical discussion, it is beyond the grasp of
human mind." but later, you contradict, and with a human mind, you come to a conclusion of a true religion and
quote "there is one true religion and that is universal love." In one breath you claim Truth cannot be arrived, and then in the next breath you claim one true religion which is
"Universal Love" Shyamala, what is it? Can Truth be arrived or it cannot be arrived – you cannot have it both ways. Shyamala, If your religion is true, then I need to know this God who created the Heavens and the Earth, the various
life forms including humans, the meaning of life, the morality and the final destiny. Can you please give some evidence
of this true religion or God that you know of? -
Remember you haven't proven anything. You talk about the great saints who rose to perfection in God - These are irrelevant topic, let us focus on "Who is the True Supreme God?" You could be sincerely believing in a God, but what if you are sincerely wrong? and what if this God doesn't exist? and
what if this God is a figment of man's imagination? - Something to think about. Thanks, Elias D’costa Jan. 06, 2005
Here is another supportive E-mail reproduced as I got from Dr. Ranjit Dodla, who is currently in the UK.
I was going through your website. I must accept whole-heartedly it is a great effort. I hope SRIMAN NARAYANA continues in offering His nirheduha kripa so that you can continue this kaimkaryam. Sri Madhvacharya in his Upanishad Bhashya has said it is not important for one to developed right knowledge but also it is extremely important to criticize wrong knowledge.
According to Dr. Koenraad else while ultimate truth might elude us it is still possible to criticize and avoid what is untruth. You might be surprised why I am writing all these things. As I was going through the arguments of D’costa, I found another classic case of missionary on the prowl in guise of a sincere seeker of truth. His first few mails produced an image as though he is a sincere seeker but his last mail addressing Shyamala he says he feels the truth is there in the bible. So the contradiction starts with D’costa and not the Veda I guess. So if I somehow prove to him that SRIMAN NARAYANA is the supreme he would immediately throw the bible and would start worshipping NARAYANA. Is this the way a sincere seeker of truth would behave?
Ok, lets begin to have some fun now with some of his arguments. He says kingdom divided cannot survive according to Jesus. Let’s for a brief moment assume that Hinduism is a divided house. The very fact it has survived has classically proved how wrong Jesus was. Aldous Huxley clearly writes Hinduism withstood the missionary zeal of Christianity and the onslaught of Islam. Nowhere in the Vedas it’s given as Gods are fighting with each other rather they are fighting only the darker forces of evil. Only in Hinduism you can see lord Shiva praising lord Vishnu and vice versa. But in exodus your god cannot even stand the worship of other gods as he clearly states I am a jealous god worship ye not other gods. D’costa has said that truth is exclusive. How can that be possible? Truth is all-inclusive. I’ll give you a classic example. In the Bhagavad Gita the Lord says ” I exist in all these beings, all beings exist in Me, but I am not in them behold my divine magic, ‘O Partha.”
Perhaps as usual a man of D’costa’s nature would raise his voice and say see how contradictory the verses are. But let’s take the analogy of space and air. Air exists in space but would you say that space exists in air. Similarly its the case of truth or god. It’s totally an all inclusive phenomenon. Again the entire credit of this analogy should go to Sri Aurobindo who gave this analogy.
My dear friend TRS Iyengar, I ask you to beware of such souls who are hell bent on tarnishing Sanatana Dharma. Great eminent people like Bertrand Russell and Shaw have already demolished Bible and Christianity critically. Paradoxically it was proved to be ONE OF THE PATHS by Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. Unfortunately I am very slow in typing so I will break rest of his arguments in my future mails.
Jan. 10, 2005
This discussion is continued in the next page..________________________________________________________________________________________________